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== Discussion Night ==
+
== Guided Discussion for Fair Vote Canada Strategy 2019 ==
−
=== Guided Discussion for Fair Vote Canada Strategy 2019 ===
 
  
 +
These are the resources and meeting notes for the Discussion Night meeting we held on Wednesday, 27 September 2017 at 7:00pm in the Bread & Roses Community Meeting Room.
  
 +
=== Resources ===
 +
; Host Guide
 +
: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5wRCtOTJB3wwE3DOcA65-S4vC-btBycaRuImivg3lU/edit?usp=sharing
 +
; Fair Vote Canada Strategic Plan
 +
: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lIyZ1XIGqv-ykXqCJWW-eBMyyDWuCScbzbj6AE1wmJs/edit?usp=sharing
 +
; Survey Results
 +
: https://secure.fairvote.ca/sites/secure.fairvote.ca/files/civicrm/persist/contribute/images/2017_funding%20next%20leg_2019plan_donatepage.png?noload
 +
; Meeting Announcement
 +
: http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-announce_listserv.thinkers.org/2017-September/000996.html
 +
; Meeting Notes
 +
: https://sobac.com/wiki/FairvoteWRC_meeting_2017-09-27
  
 +
=== Meeting Notes ===
 +
 +
Meeting notes taken by Bob Jonkman.
 +
 +
==== Introductions ====
 +
“Why is this issue personally important to you? What makes you care about this issue enough to join us tonight? ” 
 +
* 5 MPs have only 29% support in their riding.
 +
* Furious about numbers. How can we fix it?
 +
* Last few elections elected a majority with only 39%.
 +
* Promises are not kept.
 +
** (participant has been copying letters to Bardish Chagger)
 +
* Promise broken.
 +
* Need a collaborative or coalition government .
 +
** Better social programs, &c.
 +
* Have been voting Green, but my vote hasn't been effective.
 +
* Broken promise.
 +
** But there's still time to pass legislation to implement Electoral Reform!
 +
* Needed to vote strategically because of the promise of Proportional Representation.
 +
* Need a better system for working together.
 +
* Started with the 2007 Ontario Referendum.
 +
* Parties are elected with minuscule numbers.
 +
** (participant worked with "Vote Together", "Lead Now", &c)
 +
* Annoyed when promises are broken.
 +
* Promises...
 +
* Just getting involved in politics, checking out Fair Vote.
 +
* Wish we had a real representative democracy; instead we have gross distortions
 +
* False majorities, wrong-way winners.
 +
* Hate voting strategically.
 +
* Still hopeful!
 +
* Impatient -- have been voting for decades, still haven't elected anyone.
 +
* Change the rules for voting, but we need approval from the politicians to change.
 +
** Who were elected with the current system, and so are unlikely to want it changed.
 +
* Had given up on voting, but didn't understand the problem that made the popular vote not equal to the number of seats.
 +
* Can't call ourselves a democracy.
 +
* Promise broken.
 +
* Every election things get worse.
 +
* Working in politics, now understand the wasted vote and wasted effort.
 +
* Politicians promised PR, didn't deliver.
 +
* Heard Brian Tanguay speak.
 +
* Fed up with Liberal promise: Campaign from the left, govern from the right.
 +
* Unfair system (First Past The Post)
 +
** Canada is only one of three FPTP countries.
 +
* Want local representation.
 +
* It's a money game.
 +
** More $$ means more chance to win the election.
 +
 +
==== Where are people from? ====
 +
{| class="wikitable" summary="Attendance"
 +
| Cambridge                || 0
 +
|-
 +
| Kitchener--Conestoga      || 2
 +
|-
 +
| Kitchener Centre          || 5
 +
|-
 +
| Kitchener South--Hespeler || 2
 +
|-
 +
| Waterloo                  || 4
 +
|}
 +
 +
==== Pro-PR MPs-- at risk? ====
 +
* Hah! No MP (in Waterloo Region) ''really'' supports Proportional Representation!
 +
 +
 +
; Bardish Chagger (Liberal, Waterloo)
 +
* Never said anything in favour.
 +
* Made election promise "Last FPTP election"
 +
* Toes the party line.
 +
 +
 +
; Marwan Tabbara (Liberal, Kitchener South--Hespeler)
 +
* Is an animal of the Party.
 +
* May not have a real opinion.
 +
* Will back the Party on anything.
 +
* Wants to be an MP, stay an MP.
 +
** Will switch his opinion on anything as necessary to stay elected.
 +
* [http://www.fairvotewrc.ca/there-is-a-responsible-path-forward-electoral-reform/ Marwan's letter] was not personally written.
 +
** He has very good staff to do that for him, fooled some people into thinking it was genuine.
 +
 +
 +
; Raj Saini (Liberal, Kitchener Centre)
 +
* Toes Party line.
 +
* Made weak arguments about the Party line (and why he broke his promise)
 +
* Got into politics because he wanted a National Pharmacare plan
 +
** But he didn't bother to show up for the Council of Canadians' presentation on Pharmacare.
 +
* When we delivered petitions he seemed afraid of us.
 +
* He owes his job to the Party.
 +
* During the campaign he was very well informed on PR, and was in favour.
 +
 +
 +
===== Miscellaneous Comments =====
 +
* We still have years until 2019, we can make existing MPs suffer.
 +
** But the parliamentary process requires 24 months lead time to enact Electoral Reform.
 +
*MPs aren't engaged with us.
 +
** We need to protest, throw red paint filled balloons at their constituency offices.
 +
** Civil disobedience!
 +
* MPs need to own what they say
 +
* Use #hashtags on social media to coordinate flash mobs to engage in civil disobedience.
 +
 +
==== Is this a "Safe Riding"? ====
 +
; Kitchener Centre (Raj Saini, Liberal)
 +
* Kitchener Centre is not a safe riding for Raj Saini.
 +
** But the chance of electing an NDP or Green MP? Can't happen.
 +
 +
 +
* Is speaking with MPs effective?
 +
** Hasn't been...
 +
*** Then why continue to do that?
 +
* Youth ''wants'' to do something.
 +
** Use crowdfunding to activate the youth.
 +
* General population doesn't understand our current system, the problems with it, or the solution.
 +
** Even highly educated people!
 +
* Focus less on MPs, Fair Vote should concentrate on educating people
 +
** This gives us the leverage to influence MPs
 +
** That leverage is the threat of not being re-elected.
 +
* But Main Stream Media is complicit (in suppressing info on ER)
 +
** Try to attract media, but keep it completely non-violent.
 +
* '''We Are The Media'''
 +
** Everyone has cell phone cameras and uses social media.
 +
* Hold public events to attract the Main Stream Media, and shame the MPs.
 +
 +
 +
; Waterloo (Bardish Chagger, Liberal)
 +
* Safe seat? Waterloo is a swing riding.
 +
** Has NDP MPP, previous PC and Liberal MPs.
 +
*** Even an NDP MP! ([[Wikipedia:Max Saltsman]] from 1964 to 1979)
 +
 +
 +
* How would "Vote Together" work?
 +
** People won't do it again.
 +
* Fair Vote should just get people to vote!
 +
** but wasted votes...
 +
* With education people are more inclined to vote.
 +
* Get together with other groups.
 +
** eg. Anti-poverty groups (Basic Income Waterloo, ALIVe, Social Development Centre)
 +
** Faith Groups
 +
* Fair Vote Waterloo has an Outreach Strategy
 +
** Last year Outreach Committee targeted Antipoverty groups, gave presentations
 +
** This year they're targeting Faith groups and Social Action groups
 +
 +
 +
; Kitchener South--Hespeler (Marwan Tabbara, Liberal)
 +
* Redistributed results (from riding boundary change) indicates the area would have voted for the Conservatives
 +
* Neighbourhood Association held an  All Party Candidates Meeting.
 +
** Marwan Tabbara was the weakest candidate.
 +
** But he won because of Strategic Voting to unseat the Conservatives.
 +
** People vote for the Prime Minister, not the local candidate.
 +
 +
 +
* Six weeks before the 2019 Election Campaign start awareness of "Last election under FPTP"
 +
 +
 +
; Cambridge (Bryan May, Liberal)
 +
* is not recognized as a candidate, eg. at grocery store
 +
* Cambridge is a potential swing riding
 +
 +
 +
; Kitchener--Conestoga (Harold Albrecht, Conservative)
 +
* Had a small plurality in 2015 election.
 +
** But had true majority in previous elections.
 +
* Liberal candidate Tim Louis won't promote PR if elected.
 +
 +
 +
==== How well-liked is your MP? ====
 +
* Afraid that Raj Saini ''is'' well-liked.
 +
* No-one knows who Marwan Tabbara is.
 +
* Bardish Chagger is very popular.
 +
* Bryan May is neutral.
 +
* Harold Albrecht is popular.
 +
 +
 +
* NAFTA issue takes precedence
 +
** Other issues are more important to voters
 +
*** But those other issues depend on PR to get done
 +
 +
 +
* Fair Vote should raise money and raise profile of the Proporational Representation issue.
 +
* Get people together
 +
** Barbeques, social media
 +
* Work with University groups
 +
* Spend money on radio ads
 +
 +
 +
==== Advice for the campaigns of other candidates ====
 +
* Need more money.
 +
* Be stronger in your message.
 +
** Don't be a centrist!
 +
* Need more volunteers
 +
* Start knocking on doors.
 +
** Liberal MPs and candidates are already knocking on doors.
 +
* Operate on principle!
 +
** (candidates should stick to their principles, not sway to popular opinion)
 +
* Can the NDP and Green Party cooperate?
 +
** "Cooperate For Canada" was a movement to get two pro-PR parties to run only one candidate to avoid splitting the vote.
 +
** But neither NDP nor Green Party were too keen on resigning their candidate.
 +
* Hire Rick Mercer to promote cooperation.
 +
** Crowdfund $5 to hear him speak.
 +
* Raise more money! (for opposition candidates)
 +
* Want a candidate who wins without money, who wins on merit.
 +
* Martin Luther King quote "Peace is not just a goal, but the means to a goal".
 +
** Apply the same to cooperation.
 +
* Advice to Fair Voters: Learn from Bernie Sanders.
 +
* Opposition candidates should start their campaign sooner.
 +
* Use pyramid techniques: A friend calls two friends, and so on.
 +
** This is [[Wikipedia:Marshall Ganz]] -- the Snowflake model.
 +
* The Waterloo NDP campaign: The "star" candidate wasn't stellar.
 +
* Parties need to prop up their candidates. Needs $$$
 +
* Debates are engineered (don't provide real info, but soundbites; favour incumbents)
 +
* Bardish Chagger was groomed for the position
 +
** Knew how to schmooze
 +
* Candidates need to learn to schmooze
 +
* Green Party candidates need a higher profile since they don't run attack ads
 +
** "Feisty isn't the same as attacking."
 +
* Have a strong candidate who is good at public speaking.
 +
** But that didn't matter for Liberal candidates.
 +
* Prediction: Incumbents (Liberals) will have two key issues
 +
** Maybe opposition candidates need to rally around these issues.
 +
** NAFTA? Not sexy, maybe something else will come up before 2019.
 +
* Candidate's success is dependent on the charisma of the leader.
 +
* The "soft coalition" of Indigenous votes, youth, and Green + NDP who voted strategically for Liberals
 +
** worked for Liberals, but no more.
 +
* Show the voters they didn't get what they want.
 +
 +
===== Advice for Fair Vote =====
 +
 +
* Fair Vote should focus on Waterloo
 +
** Split between NDP and PR supporters
 +
** Best chance to get a  Pro-PR candidate
 +
 +
OR
 +
 +
* Fair Vote should focus on Kitchener South--Hespeler
 +
** Marwan Tabbara is a weak candidate
 +
** Lorne Bruce (NDP) is a strong candidate
 +
 +
OR
 +
 +
* General discussion on Proporational Representation is too general.
 +
** Need  a specific strategy (voting system), eg. MMPPR (Mixed Member Preferential Proportional Representation), or STV (Single Transferable Vote).
 +
** Fair Vote Canada gets behind (endorses) '''one''' (or two) voting system(s).
 +
* PR makes intuitive sense, but specific systems can't be proven to work in Canada.
 +
** People poke holes in any proposed system.
 +
* Use a local model.
 +
** Use Waterloo Region examples to illustrate PR to Waterloo Region voters.
 +
** For people who want details, give them international examples.
 +
* Fair Vote Canada should focus on the Ontario 2018 Provincial Election as well.
 +
** PR is more likely to be achieved provincially (following BC's success).
 +
** Ontario Provincial election is an excuse to talk about PR.
 +
 +
* Have people moved past favouring a specific system?
 +
** Everyone has a pet system.
 +
** FVC needs to say "We'll support a system with these criteria: 1) 2) 3)"
 +
*** eg. low [[Wikipedia:Gallagher Index]]; regional representation
 +
** But FVC should stop short of endorsing a specific system
 +
 +
* FVC should use the phrase "Election Reform", not "Electoral Reform"
 +
** Use the words that people already know.
  
  
 
[[Category:FairvoteWRC]]
 
[[Category:FairvoteWRC]]

Latest revision as of 14:21, 7 October 2017

Guided Discussion for Fair Vote Canada Strategy 2019

These are the resources and meeting notes for the Discussion Night meeting we held on Wednesday, 27 September 2017 at 7:00pm in the Bread & Roses Community Meeting Room.

Resources

Host Guide
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5wRCtOTJB3wwE3DOcA65-S4vC-btBycaRuImivg3lU/edit?usp=sharing
Fair Vote Canada Strategic Plan
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lIyZ1XIGqv-ykXqCJWW-eBMyyDWuCScbzbj6AE1wmJs/edit?usp=sharing
Survey Results
https://secure.fairvote.ca/sites/secure.fairvote.ca/files/civicrm/persist/contribute/images/2017_funding%20next%20leg_2019plan_donatepage.png?noload
Meeting Announcement
http://listserv.thinkers.org/pipermail/fvc-wat-announce_listserv.thinkers.org/2017-September/000996.html
Meeting Notes
https://sobac.com/wiki/FairvoteWRC_meeting_2017-09-27

Meeting Notes

Meeting notes taken by Bob Jonkman.

Introductions

“Why is this issue personally important to you? What makes you care about this issue enough to join us tonight? ”

  • 5 MPs have only 29% support in their riding.
  • Furious about numbers. How can we fix it?
  • Last few elections elected a majority with only 39%.
  • Promises are not kept.
    • (participant has been copying letters to Bardish Chagger)
  • Promise broken.
  • Need a collaborative or coalition government .
    • Better social programs, &c.
  • Have been voting Green, but my vote hasn't been effective.
  • Broken promise.
    • But there's still time to pass legislation to implement Electoral Reform!
  • Needed to vote strategically because of the promise of Proportional Representation.
  • Need a better system for working together.
  • Started with the 2007 Ontario Referendum.
  • Parties are elected with minuscule numbers.
    • (participant worked with "Vote Together", "Lead Now", &c)
  • Annoyed when promises are broken.
  • Promises...
  • Just getting involved in politics, checking out Fair Vote.
  • Wish we had a real representative democracy; instead we have gross distortions
  • False majorities, wrong-way winners.
  • Hate voting strategically.
  • Still hopeful!
  • Impatient -- have been voting for decades, still haven't elected anyone.
  • Change the rules for voting, but we need approval from the politicians to change.
    • Who were elected with the current system, and so are unlikely to want it changed.
  • Had given up on voting, but didn't understand the problem that made the popular vote not equal to the number of seats.
  • Can't call ourselves a democracy.
  • Promise broken.
  • Every election things get worse.
  • Working in politics, now understand the wasted vote and wasted effort.
  • Politicians promised PR, didn't deliver.
  • Heard Brian Tanguay speak.
  • Fed up with Liberal promise: Campaign from the left, govern from the right.
  • Unfair system (First Past The Post)
    • Canada is only one of three FPTP countries.
  • Want local representation.
  • It's a money game.
    • More $$ means more chance to win the election.

Where are people from?

Cambridge 0
Kitchener--Conestoga 2
Kitchener Centre 5
Kitchener South--Hespeler 2
Waterloo 4

Pro-PR MPs-- at risk?

  • Hah! No MP (in Waterloo Region) really supports Proportional Representation!


Bardish Chagger (Liberal, Waterloo)
  • Never said anything in favour.
  • Made election promise "Last FPTP election"
  • Toes the party line.


Marwan Tabbara (Liberal, Kitchener South--Hespeler)
  • Is an animal of the Party.
  • May not have a real opinion.
  • Will back the Party on anything.
  • Wants to be an MP, stay an MP.
    • Will switch his opinion on anything as necessary to stay elected.
  • Marwan's letter was not personally written.
    • He has very good staff to do that for him, fooled some people into thinking it was genuine.


Raj Saini (Liberal, Kitchener Centre)
  • Toes Party line.
  • Made weak arguments about the Party line (and why he broke his promise)
  • Got into politics because he wanted a National Pharmacare plan
    • But he didn't bother to show up for the Council of Canadians' presentation on Pharmacare.
  • When we delivered petitions he seemed afraid of us.
  • He owes his job to the Party.
  • During the campaign he was very well informed on PR, and was in favour.


Miscellaneous Comments
  • We still have years until 2019, we can make existing MPs suffer.
    • But the parliamentary process requires 24 months lead time to enact Electoral Reform.
  • MPs aren't engaged with us.
    • We need to protest, throw red paint filled balloons at their constituency offices.
    • Civil disobedience!
  • MPs need to own what they say
  • Use #hashtags on social media to coordinate flash mobs to engage in civil disobedience.

Is this a "Safe Riding"?

Kitchener Centre (Raj Saini, Liberal)
  • Kitchener Centre is not a safe riding for Raj Saini.
    • But the chance of electing an NDP or Green MP? Can't happen.


  • Is speaking with MPs effective?
    • Hasn't been...
      • Then why continue to do that?
  • Youth wants to do something.
    • Use crowdfunding to activate the youth.
  • General population doesn't understand our current system, the problems with it, or the solution.
    • Even highly educated people!
  • Focus less on MPs, Fair Vote should concentrate on educating people
    • This gives us the leverage to influence MPs
    • That leverage is the threat of not being re-elected.
  • But Main Stream Media is complicit (in suppressing info on ER)
    • Try to attract media, but keep it completely non-violent.
  • We Are The Media
    • Everyone has cell phone cameras and uses social media.
  • Hold public events to attract the Main Stream Media, and shame the MPs.


Waterloo (Bardish Chagger, Liberal)
  • Safe seat? Waterloo is a swing riding.


  • How would "Vote Together" work?
    • People won't do it again.
  • Fair Vote should just get people to vote!
    • but wasted votes...
  • With education people are more inclined to vote.
  • Get together with other groups.
    • eg. Anti-poverty groups (Basic Income Waterloo, ALIVe, Social Development Centre)
    • Faith Groups
  • Fair Vote Waterloo has an Outreach Strategy
    • Last year Outreach Committee targeted Antipoverty groups, gave presentations
    • This year they're targeting Faith groups and Social Action groups


Kitchener South--Hespeler (Marwan Tabbara, Liberal)
  • Redistributed results (from riding boundary change) indicates the area would have voted for the Conservatives
  • Neighbourhood Association held an All Party Candidates Meeting.
    • Marwan Tabbara was the weakest candidate.
    • But he won because of Strategic Voting to unseat the Conservatives.
    • People vote for the Prime Minister, not the local candidate.


  • Six weeks before the 2019 Election Campaign start awareness of "Last election under FPTP"


Cambridge (Bryan May, Liberal)
  • is not recognized as a candidate, eg. at grocery store
  • Cambridge is a potential swing riding


Kitchener--Conestoga (Harold Albrecht, Conservative)
  • Had a small plurality in 2015 election.
    • But had true majority in previous elections.
  • Liberal candidate Tim Louis won't promote PR if elected.


How well-liked is your MP?

  • Afraid that Raj Saini is well-liked.
  • No-one knows who Marwan Tabbara is.
  • Bardish Chagger is very popular.
  • Bryan May is neutral.
  • Harold Albrecht is popular.


  • NAFTA issue takes precedence
    • Other issues are more important to voters
      • But those other issues depend on PR to get done


  • Fair Vote should raise money and raise profile of the Proporational Representation issue.
  • Get people together
    • Barbeques, social media
  • Work with University groups
  • Spend money on radio ads


Advice for the campaigns of other candidates

  • Need more money.
  • Be stronger in your message.
    • Don't be a centrist!
  • Need more volunteers
  • Start knocking on doors.
    • Liberal MPs and candidates are already knocking on doors.
  • Operate on principle!
    • (candidates should stick to their principles, not sway to popular opinion)
  • Can the NDP and Green Party cooperate?
    • "Cooperate For Canada" was a movement to get two pro-PR parties to run only one candidate to avoid splitting the vote.
    • But neither NDP nor Green Party were too keen on resigning their candidate.
  • Hire Rick Mercer to promote cooperation.
    • Crowdfund $5 to hear him speak.
  • Raise more money! (for opposition candidates)
  • Want a candidate who wins without money, who wins on merit.
  • Martin Luther King quote "Peace is not just a goal, but the means to a goal".
    • Apply the same to cooperation.
  • Advice to Fair Voters: Learn from Bernie Sanders.
  • Opposition candidates should start their campaign sooner.
  • Use pyramid techniques: A friend calls two friends, and so on.
  • The Waterloo NDP campaign: The "star" candidate wasn't stellar.
  • Parties need to prop up their candidates. Needs $$$
  • Debates are engineered (don't provide real info, but soundbites; favour incumbents)
  • Bardish Chagger was groomed for the position
    • Knew how to schmooze
  • Candidates need to learn to schmooze
  • Green Party candidates need a higher profile since they don't run attack ads
    • "Feisty isn't the same as attacking."
  • Have a strong candidate who is good at public speaking.
    • But that didn't matter for Liberal candidates.
  • Prediction: Incumbents (Liberals) will have two key issues
    • Maybe opposition candidates need to rally around these issues.
    • NAFTA? Not sexy, maybe something else will come up before 2019.
  • Candidate's success is dependent on the charisma of the leader.
  • The "soft coalition" of Indigenous votes, youth, and Green + NDP who voted strategically for Liberals
    • worked for Liberals, but no more.
  • Show the voters they didn't get what they want.
Advice for Fair Vote
  • Fair Vote should focus on Waterloo
    • Split between NDP and PR supporters
    • Best chance to get a Pro-PR candidate

OR

  • Fair Vote should focus on Kitchener South--Hespeler
    • Marwan Tabbara is a weak candidate
    • Lorne Bruce (NDP) is a strong candidate

OR

  • General discussion on Proporational Representation is too general.
    • Need a specific strategy (voting system), eg. MMPPR (Mixed Member Preferential Proportional Representation), or STV (Single Transferable Vote).
    • Fair Vote Canada gets behind (endorses) one (or two) voting system(s).
  • PR makes intuitive sense, but specific systems can't be proven to work in Canada.
    • People poke holes in any proposed system.
  • Use a local model.
    • Use Waterloo Region examples to illustrate PR to Waterloo Region voters.
    • For people who want details, give them international examples.
  • Fair Vote Canada should focus on the Ontario 2018 Provincial Election as well.
    • PR is more likely to be achieved provincially (following BC's success).
    • Ontario Provincial election is an excuse to talk about PR.
  • Have people moved past favouring a specific system?
    • Everyone has a pet system.
    • FVC needs to say "We'll support a system with these criteria: 1) 2) 3)"
    • But FVC should stop short of endorsing a specific system
  • FVC should use the phrase "Election Reform", not "Electoral Reform"
    • Use the words that people already know.
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